lady_karelia | About the written word

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About the written word

Following the poll and discussion about what puts readers off (thanks, everyone, who engaged in it; it was very interesting and productive), some of you asked which trend I've been observing, so I figured it's easier to do this in a separate post rather than answering the same thing individually to everyone who asked.

Yes, I'll admit that I see a lot more behind the scenes going on, being an admin and a beta rather than a reader only. But it's all about writing. And yes, I realise that every reader has preferences and they may vary to the extreme between one reader and another, and that's good, for that makes for a vast variety of reading material to choose from. And just to clarify: This is my personal opinion. I've not discussed it with any other admins or other betas or anyone so far aside from yesterday's thread here on LJ.

The trends I've observed over the past few months are sloppiness, carelessness, and inflated ego development. These traits have increased quite substantially. None of them have a place in fiction writing. In case you wonder, allow me to extrapolate:

Sloppiness: When an author submits a chapter (or uploads to unmoderated archives) either without having it read by another set of eyes, even though it would need it, or failing to re-read it in order to weed out the errors they'd find on their own, or not using a spellcheck (and then give the excuse of not having MS Word; um, hello, google spellcheck, and you'll have choices), that is sloppy. If you can't be arsed to invest the time to offer something worth my time, what makes you think I'll take the time to invest in your stuff?

Carelessness: When an author submits/uploads a chapter that says pretty much nothing and then admits as much in the A/N. If you want to write fiction, then at least learn the basics, eh? Because if you don't, you'll always dream of reviews except for the ones from people sorry enough to waste even thirty seconds on your sorry attempt. I readily forgive a new author any mistakes they make. I also consider myself quite tolerant when an author's first language isn't English, and yeah, I can spot those from miles away. ;) Most readers are kind, especially if the first attempt speaks to them in one way or another. But if authors still make those same mistakes a few chapters later--and I'm talking about basics here, such as dialogue punctuation or a period at the end of the sentence--then I get the feeling that the author doesn't care.

Ego: If you write because you think you need your ego stroked, do the world a favour and stop. Just because you might have written and posted 200k worth of fic in the last year does not mean what you produce is of any value whatsoever. And getting indignant that nobody seems to care is not the way to go. Ask yourself what's wrong and look in the mirror. Then sit down and figure how to make it right, okay? And then, *gasp* write something from your heart. Write something because you feel the need to write it, and don't think about posting it. Leave it for a few days and go back to it and see if you still like it, and be objective about it. At least as objective as you can possibly be. Don't write for the sake of reviews; it will not make you happy. Of course, a lot of us are royal review whores; I certainly admit that of myself. But we don't think about reviews until after the chapter is posted.

Those are my gripes. Another gripe I've developed recently is that all those rec lists out there seem to include a lot of drivel. I realise it's pc to be kind and encouraging to dunderheads. I don't like to see it going as far as insulting my intelligence by recommending I'd waste my time on reading something that is so poorly written that it has little to do with actual fiction. But that's okay; I usually don't have time for pure pleasure-reading. The only reason I did a few days ago was because I was sick with a sore throat and headachy and snotty and wanted some light reading that would distract me from feeling miserable and all the RL stuff that's been going on lately. It saddens me, though. Some established writers recommend extremely poorly-written fics while ignoring well-written ones, and I can't help but conclude that they're afraid of having competition. Why else would they lower themselves to that level?

So there. No need to tell me I'm opinionated; I've known that for a while.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

I have nothing to add or disagree with. Just wanted to pat you on the back and say, "Rock on!" Because you said it much better than I could (and nicer).

I really hate following someone's rec and wasting time with crap.

Oh, it was like watching a train wreck. I had no energy to find the x that would've closed the damn thing. And then mad at self afterwards for wasting hours, which could have been spent productively. Like sleeping. *snrk*

Thank you for your kind words. I actually did spend hours to tone it down. LOL

There's a difference between review whores and review gluttons. Review whores give thanks for every review, considering them a badge of honor, and fret about what they might have done better when the review numbers dip (or, at least, this one does). Review gluttons kvetch in their author's notes that their muses aren't being fed enough.

Perhaps the rec. lists need a new category: pulp. I'll admit that sometimes I'm in the mood for a barely simmering plot or wildly predictable plot. They make good stories to fall asleep to.... :)

Whores vs gluttons? Interesting idea! I've never thought about that. I mean, I know many newbies ask for reviews, and I've done so myself, but if an A/N contains a phrase along the lines of, 'I will post the next chapter as soon as I receive x amounts of reviews,' I tend to use that back button!

Pulp sounds interesting. The thing is,

melenka considers her Gauntlet (http://www.thepetulantpoetess.com/viewstory.php?sid=8989) pulp, and that kind of sets the standard impossibly high. LOL. It has highly simmering, near boiling plot and not so predicting. Hm. Maybe a Cheese category?

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pyjamapants.livejournal.com - 2008-12-02 06:27 (UTC) - Expand

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lady-karelia.livejournal.com - 2008-12-03 03:30 (UTC) - Expand

very well put. take that, bad writers everywhere!

*snickers*

OMG! See you Friday!!! *flails*

This is well said. Thanks.

And on the recommendations, I'm with you all the way. I like to have things recced, but it's got to the point where I rarely follow anything but a rec from someone whose opinion I trust. *sigh*

Still, they do take me to places I wouldn't have gone otherwise so it's not all bad.

Yeah, I should stick to personal recs from people I trust rather than looking at reccing communities or sites. But then again, I have so little time these days, it's unlikely to happen that I'll have enough time again to pleasure-read fic in the near future. LOL

And which hitherto unregarded gems have been missed then?

There've been a few over the last few months. I don't keep track of them unless they're exceptional, in which case I rec them on my LJ. *shrugs* I do find lately that a lot of reccing communities and/or sites have lowered their standards, but then again, that's my very personal opinion.

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shiv5468.livejournal.com - 2008-12-03 07:47 (UTC) - Expand

I agree whole heartedly. Having had a few dire requests for beta coming through PI lately, I'm also wondering where the quality went. And as for the archives - there's just so much angst and whatnot, I really can't be bothered to plough through it, but rely on the recs of people I know have similar tastes to me. The amount of doormat!Hermione out there is really getting on my nerves.

*nods* Doormat!Hermione isn't pretty to read at all. Or all the velveeta out there. *shudders*

I think it's really interesting this question of pc-ness that you're raising, because I agree with you, but I don't know what to do about it.

I agree that as a community, we often glowingly review and rec subpar fiction because we know and like the author. Our lives (particularly on LJ) have become somehow entwined with others and we encourage their efforts. I don't disagree with the notion of being kind and supportive, particularly to friends, but I see the result being gluts of fic that shouldn't live up to community standards. And of course, then everything kind of follows a logical decline.

I have stopped making personal recs from my journal, because I have no idea how to balance the needs of people that I care about against my own standards. It seems easier and fairer not to rec at all.

I don't comprehend pc-ness. It seems to be the tool for ego-stroking, and... I simply don't do it. LOL

I tend to rec a new author, who I think deserves encouragement. And I usually word it as such so that anyone who reads with their brain switched on sees the difference between a squeeful fic rec and an encouraging-a-new-writer fic rec. I agree with being kind and supportive to friends, or newcomers, or anyone, really. As a beta, I'm as blunt as in RL, and I do say what I need to say in order to hope for improvement in the writing. If they go off and sulk for a week or two, then it's their problem, and I can clearly see an ego issue there. Then I'll simply withdraw.

I have stopped making personal recs from my journal, because I have no idea how to balance the needs of people that I care about against my own standards. It seems easier and fairer not to rec at all.

I understand that. But then, is it really needs of people you care about? Or could it be wants, demands, expectations? And easier not to rec at all? Probably. Fairer? Hm. Personally, I'd love to see what you like in terms of writing. Why? I'm interested because I can see some parallels to myself (doesn't that make you shudder? LOL). You have these wonderful dynamics going between a small circle of close friends, and it all looks like it started simply because of your love of the HP books and grew into wonderful friendships across the country if not world. I am blessed to have the same, and it really isn't that rampant in the fandom. :) You're also one of the few people in this part of the fandom (I can't talk about others, as I don't know them) who's written a smashingly successful epic, and you haven't inflated your ego. So, naturally, I want to know what fic draws you. Not what you feel should be recced. So, from my point of view, not entirely fair to withhold recommendations. :)

Sorry I hadn't seen this sooner. I blame the effing sickness-that-shalt-not-be-named. Hmmm. You're opinionated? Why, I had no idea.

Sloppiness. This is why I've cut down on my beta amount. "Yeah, SW, let me send you fifty chapters of my stories and still be mispelling McGonagall and such." Fuck that. I've decided I've got better things to do.

Ego. Ahahaha. I know! I talked to someone recently and was shocked that she had one. Really. It does feel bad, though, when you write and are passed over for something you can plainly see isn't very good. Hmm. I guess that's an ego, too. But still. Right. I'm with you.

Rec List. I don't even go round them and couldn't tell you what's rec'd and what's not. The Know-It-Alls. That's a rubbish list. Sure, there are great stories there and some missed gems, but they are biased and won't put up anyone they don't like. So, that's just bs. ~proudly points to icon~

The HG/SS Digest. They were doing good for a while. I remember you getting dissed on there because of "show and not tell" and yet something that was about 250 words and written for Shiv (and was shit by the way) was rec'd on there three days later. That had me arching my eyebrows. And this was after some other chick (a right bitch) whinged about her ~~shit~~ drabbles not being rec'd there. I snickered at that because I'm pissy that way, but it felt wrong all the same. *edit* Oh, and Soul Bound had a lovely story "Potions Master For Sale" that wasn't rec'd. She asked why and was told that there were other stories like that around. (I suspect the mod had a fave and didn't want something similar up there or didn't feel SB's compared.) But yeah, let's recommend fifty MLC stories, eh? Not like they aren't all alike.

Politics. I don't put stock in it and try to stay away from it. There are people I don't like and plenty I do. They all know who they are. All the same, they are treated fairly at my group and at the archive.

As far as poorly written stories, well, some people's trash are others' treasures. I've seen something terrible thoroughly enjoyed, and I've seen something great missed. I guess it depends on our likes and dislikes. You and I disagree on lots of authors' stories lately (me seeing potential, you seeing junk). :) It varies.

It's very easy to throw together a story that you know people will come out in droves for (any MLC will do well in this fandom you know), but some of us prefer to write what we truly like instead. Things will never change until readers wise up. But they won't. This is free entertainment for them, and most of them don't care about the things our eagle eyes notice.

:(

You're opinionated? Why, I had no idea.

Not really. I just said it to lengthen the post a bit *snicker*

Sloppiness. ...

Heavens, yeah. I remember! I had a few of those, thankfully not many. I've had to cut down, too. No use feeling that someone is taking the piss out of my precious time. I live to serve, but I don't take kindly to being used in such a blatant manner.

Ego. ...

Bahaha indeed! You must have been talking to me! *falls over laughing* No, seriously, some ego is normal for this density. But inflated, or worse, overinflated? Not so good and certainly not normal.

Rec List. ...
Digest ...

I left several quite a few months ago after realising that all they did was clog up my flist, and I simply didn't have the time to follow any of them. Personally, I would like to see some more honesty on them. Like, if they said they're biassed bitches who need an outlet to tell the world what they think is worth reading, I'd probably be more interested than when they claim to be unbiased and going by quality. Sort of like the government telling me what's good for me, claiming that I don't know what's good for me so they have to tell me. *snrk*
Yeah, I was curious at the time about why something is recced and something else isn't. It was quite enlightening, even if I didn't see it at the time.

Politics. ...

*Snerk* Let's not even go there, eh?

As far as poorly written stories, ...

One of the many reasons I love you is that we disagree on lots of things, and yet it never gets personal. You are more cheese-tolerant than I am, I know. :))

Things will never change until readers wise up.

Very true. Of course, that's where the 'it's for free' comes in. Readers seem to be grateful they get to read stuff for free, and it makes them more tolerant maybe. On the other hand, some authors take for granted that the admins do their job properly day in, day out, disregarding the fact that we also do this for free. I think there's something missing in that picture...
:)

Very well said, I couldn't agree more.

I know what you mean about recs. I'm a picky reader and have been very disappointed a few times so now I only rely on recs from people I trust.

I suppose I'm picky, too... LOL

In general, I don't have the time to pleasure-read. I've even become quite selfish working the queue by tagging the stuff I know I'll enjoy. Which is a bit pathetic, I know. But I'm human too. Or try to, anyways. :)

I can't tell whether it's a trend, but these problems certainly exist. I can't imagine what might be done about the sloppiness and carelessness, though, because the writers often seem to excuse it with the words, "It's just for fun." Which is great. I think writing should be fun. But I've never understood the attitude of equalling "doing something for fun" with "not giving my best". If people play football, play the piano or have some other hobby, do they also don't give their best because it's just for fun? I doubt it.

But with other hobbies they might not receive an instant and often glowing gratification, which might be another problem. When does one ever see that a story doesn't get loads of great reviews? Apart from the fact that I'm not a fan of these star ratings in the first place, when does one ever see a story that has less than 4.5 stars? Every writer and every story are hailed as being great. And while this might be politically correct, it's a completely meaningless procedure. It's doing a disservice both to the truly great writers and to the writers who still have much to learn.

As for recommendations, I rarely follow them. It has happened too often that writers whose fics I admire very much have recced stories that I thought were very badly written.

Just to comment on the stars. I only leave them for stories that I like and never give fewer than 4 stories. If I don't finish a story because it doesn't click with me, I generally don't leave a review. But I have seen several SS/HG that are so out of character that you don't recognize either character but review after review raves about how wonderful the story is. But yeah, I don't really like the stars as they are pretty meaningless.

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veradee.livejournal.com - 2008-12-02 14:18 (UTC) - Expand

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lady-karelia.livejournal.com - 2008-12-03 05:06 (UTC) - Expand

Oh goodness, have I seen the ego. I really hate that. I have seen authors holding the next chapter hostage until a certain number of reviews are received.

I love reviews. I have never gotten many because I don't normally choose to write the popular pairing in either of the fandoms I write for. I know this has hurt me because folks see my name and assume that I'm going to be writing the not so popular characters/pairings.

I have never understood folks who don't take pride in their work by having it beta'd, spellchecked, etc.

Don't we all love reviews? LOL

I do remember my early days when I didn't quite grasp the concept of English actually having punctuation rules. And I have to thank NSS for being patient enough to explain everything to death until I comprehended it. I'm aware of my weakness to slip the occasional Germanism in my writing, but my regular beta is aware of it and looks out for those, and when I have occasional betas when she's not around, I tend to point out that it's my weakness and ask them to look out for them. So, yeah, I'd rather have teh perfect posted a week later than the imperfect a day early. But obviously, only a few work that way. It seems nowadays, the majority write for the quick fix and then throw a fit if they don't get reviews. *sighs*

Very interesting, lady_karelia. I especially appreciate that it is not only me who sees an exponential growth of number of stories that one one does not wish to see at all. Readers have an advantage of admin buffer, or firewall if you prefer, that shields them from mediocre stories, and that surely makes our heartache less pronounced compared to you.

But still, what can an admin do with a story that started off well and subsequently dwindled to the ego kind? Because, I, as a reader, have a tool called reviews. They are just not appreciated unless they are squee-ky.

Reviews are a funny thing. For example, I personally don't appreciate a poor review that claims concrit when it clearly isn't and comes from a non-author or sock-puppet. I am lucky in that I have several friends who imo are wonderful writers, and before any chapter of mine sees the light of day, I've discussed several aspects of it and the whole fic with said friends whose opinion I trust. So, at the end of the day, once the chapter is posted, I don't really care to hear from reader-only that it's mediocre or copies the Hardy Boys. I'm especially allergic to those accusing me of copying movie contents. Because I don't watch tv and rarely watch movies. When, however, someone points out something that is valid, I will fix it and thank them for pointing it out. This happened in a few instances in the latest calamity I posted for the PP challenge and is clearly documented in the reviews. :) That said, yes, there is an increasing number of "stories" that don't deserve the term 'story.' Absolutely. Which is what part of my gripe is about.

An admin, at least on TPP, but probably on the other moderated archives as well, first and foremost has to apply the standards the site asks for. Those are usually SPaG, lack of plot holes (to a certain extent; one admin reads one chapter, another reads the next etc, so there's bound to be a lack of detection in plot holes at times), so that alone makes it difficult to call an author on the issue of dwindling quality in favour of ego.

You see reviews as a tool. I don't see them as a tool so much anymore. Most reviews are a very personal opinion. Now, I appreciate personal opinions (and they, indeed, are a tool for me which I use to learn to grow in myself), but what does it mean "Your story sucks" by someone you've never heard of? To me it means little unless they go into detail as to why they decide my story sucks. *shrugs*

C'est la vie! :)

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natasnape.livejournal.com - 2008-12-03 07:01 (UTC) - Expand

Yeah, I can see all of the above.

About recs, though: I will skim recs that people give, and if I don't like them for whatever reason, I'll stop reading them and move on with a philosophical shrug. It's all a matter of taste in a lot of cases, and I'm pretty forgiving of that.

I know that my stuff isn't universally loved (or even very good - it's true, not me being self-effacing) and while I'd prefer people to be honest and informed when they leave reviews (and those two rarely come together), I also don't sweat it very much, I'm still finding my voice in a lot of cases and while I want to do a good job in terms of mechanics, grammar and spelling, and plotiness, I'm doing this to get better as a writer, not to win friends and praise.

I had a point, if you see it, let me know, I think I need it back!

*hugs*

About recs, though: ...

I usually do the same, and I wholeheartedly agree about it being a matter of taste. That's why I kept pointing out that it's my personal opinion. :) I just got totally unnerved after clicking several recs that I found unreadable in terms of plot, SPaG, and characterization. To boot, I got stuck on a trainwreck. Sad, that, I know. I shouldn't fall for that. But my excuse is that I was sick. Anyway, that led me to rant on here because I've been seeing this trend of carelessness, sloppiness, disregard for anything that is WRITING too often lately. As an admin, as a beta, and now as a reader.

As to your writings (and please call it writing rather than 'stuff' for writing is what it is), nobody is universally loved. I for one appreciate it. You have a refreshing attitude and approach to crafting stories. Yes, you have room for improvement, but so does everyone, no? And you're doing well. Again, in case some dunderheads read this, that is my personal opinion.

I'm doing this to get better as a writer, not to win friends and praise

This is where lies the difference between inflated ego and writer!

I'd like to think I see your point absolutely perfectly! Well said, too! *hugs you back*

Thoase are not gripes, and that list is pretty much what most folks should be doing because it's common sense.

I wish I knew who you were...

Feel the same as everyone... just adding my non-original thoughts to the list :)

As for star ratings, I have never given lower than a four - deserved or not - and I personally have never recieved anything below a four (deserved or not LOL). No one wants to come right out and say 'okay, this needs a lot of work' and so we tend to 'play nice', which makes for far less conflict but obviously does not improve story quality.

As for rec sites, I only check out some of the stories recced on

the_new_library. I like that one because 1. it gives you the stories that you probably would otherwise never find, and 2. the comm has it's own 'star-rating' system independant of the story's star-rating so you can see what the reccer actually thought of the fic - you get "here's a 8/10 rec" as opposed to "here's a rec, check it out" - AND others who read that rec can also leave a rating on the comm, which IMO gives a better reflection of the possible likability (<-sp?) of the rec.

But as for other rec sites, I don't know about all of them but one in particular I checked out seemed to just be the same authors over and over with a mere few odds and ends scattered inbetween. It came off as more of a site that was created for the sole purpose of a specific group of people saying 'oh, your work is great.' 'Oh, no, no, YOUR work is great.' - I tend to refer to it as a circle jerk. LOL
But anyway, after seeing that one I kinda saw no point in checking out other rec sites for fear they'd be the same (until TNL came along). I think I do pretty well finding stories on my own anyway so ~shrug~ .

I initially signed up for TNL but then left for lack of time. I didn't even think of looking at it in my snotty state :( Might have found something better I guess. Damn.

Ooooohhhhh, this last paragraph of yours? You speak out of my heart! Circle jerk is just so fitting!

All good points. However, it is fandom and so much of fandom is about everything you have gripes about. It is all about carelessness, ego and sloppiness. Do I care for it? Nope, I don't. But I have learned to deal with some of it.

What bugs me? A lack of flair. So much that has been posted has little style. I say, even if you are writing a bad fic have some character to it.

Recs--I don't know. I do follow some, others I ignore. Depends on who is doing the rec'ing. I do like the SS/HG digest.

But why does everyone seem so accepting of it if it's bugging???

Lack of flair is totally understandable. I am bugged by that, too.

Do you follow the fics recced on there? I read a few lately, or tried to, but it didnt get me anywhere. The ones I didn't follow are the ones I read anyway.

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rosedemon.livejournal.com - 2008-12-03 07:47 (UTC) - Expand

I cannot tell you how much I would prefer that reviews be used for constructive criticism. I do not expect it, because that particular art has fallen out of favor and is no longer taught. Shame, really. I appreciate reviews, but only when they tell me something about how the reader felt, what they thought, if they were confused, etc. "I liked it" - or any version thereof - is a lovely affirmation, but it gives me nothing to work with. To ask the reviewer "what? what specifically?" would seem like trolling for love, when what I really want is the answer. I suppose that would take them knowing the answer, which they may or may not, and I'm not sure I have the right to ask that of them.

Part of the reason I like writing original fic (aside from chafing at the bonds of someone else's world) is that the people who choose to read aren't bringing preconceived notions of what they want the characters to be like, so their criticism or praise is based on their reaction to what they actually read.

It does help to be an unknown quantity, as I dodge the popularity contests and politics entirely. There's enough of that in my job, thanks. Fiction is an escape for me and I don't plan to let anyone take that from me unless they're handing me a publishing contract -- at which point I am entirely their bitch.

So much for my proof-reading ability. Above should read: To ask the reviewer "why? what specifically?"

I hang my head in shame.

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lady-karelia.livejournal.com - 2008-12-04 03:36 (UTC) - Expand

Sloppiness & carelessness: are why I tend to not read at ff.net (as one example, there are a host of sites in the same vein) much anymore - I had run into so many messy stories... I began to resent the time I wasted looking for fics, reading some, back-buttoning, and then searching again. Unfortunately I also missed a lot of good authors who happen to post there because of my frustration. Good story/good author discovery is a retroactive mission for me.

Ego: I have to admit, I'm always shocked, tickled, and squeeful when I get a review. I hope I always will be. And I'm careful to respond to them all (except one odd bitchy troll I got once on Skyehawke *snrt*). I wish I got more constructive or substantial reviews, but the one-liners are lovely, too. I'm a perfectionist - toss some crit at me and I get all Pavlov drooly.

I don't think I've manifested much in the way of ego nonsense, except my recent frustration with a mod on another site (that we've already discussed) and her setting off every inch of my crabby academic-ness with her tone. [insert Anglo-Saxon here] I have a feeling, however, that my exceptional irritation with a poorly-veiled suggestion of stupidity isn't quite what you're worried about.

Recs: I have noticed the same thing. On the rare occasions I've been rec'd I've been beyond shocked and extremely flattered, and I certainly have no expectation that everyone I know will like everything, rec everything (or anything, for that matter), or nominate anything I've done for whatever award-of-the-week happens to be in play. Honestly, tho, if I write complete shit I hope my friends, betas, mods, friends, countrymen... *cough* will tell me so. Loudly. Twice, if necessary. I've only rarely rec'd on my lj, and that's been stories that blew me away for some reason and that I felt pretty sure everyone would have missed otherwise (like a SS/RH omg!pr0n piece that was so funny I was crying). And I pimp what's been written for me, but I have never gotten a drabble gift or a fest gift that was poor quality... I'm friends with a lot of good writers - they're slumming. :P

Honestly, tho, if I write complete shit I hope my friends, betas, mods, friends, countrymen... *cough* will tell me so. Loudly.

EXACTLY!!! Unfortunately, a lot of people expect to be told how good their drivel is. I've betaed for a good number of people, and the only ones I keep for longer than the first work are those who actually want to know how they can improve. If they go off sulking because I dare tell they have parts in a fic that are positively cheesy and need to be re-written, then I don't have time for them. I don't expect them to do everything I say. But I want them to listen, thinking about it, and then decide whether my words had merit or not. I'd say the majority of writers don't care to improve their writing. Or don't care to actually spend time to improve.

We're sooooo lucky to have good writers amongst our friends! :D

Amen to that. You basically just called out everything. I have nothing to disagree with, because all of it's the truth. And you said it nicely too, which gets you brownie points.

Seriously, I don't find it that opinionated. Your gripes are the gripes of all us. It's nice that somebody finally says something.

Aw, brownie points! Thank you!

I admit I toned it down a lot after writing it off my heart. LOL

What they all said.

(And thanks for wading through crap so we don't all have to.)

Aw, thanks! You are very kind. :)

The only thing about rec'ing is that everyone has their own personal tastes which hugely vary in HP Fanfiction. What one person will like, another person may not.

SpaG does not bother me in the least (my grammar skillz are so bad that I probably wouldn't even notice), its plot and characterization that sends me clicking the back button. There is too many stories out there with the same original story development: Snape, a lonely misunderstood man. Hermione, seeing that he is misunderstood pays attention to him. UST develops between them. They have sex. They get into a fight. She gets kidnapped/threatened. They make up and poof the story is done.

With that being said it doesn't mean that the story is automatically bad because it follows that theme (some can make it interesting), its just that (I'm) a little bored of it.

/ramble

I find in the vast majority that if the writing is poor (poor grasp of grammar, careless spelling, and ignorance of punctuation rules), you'll have to actually look for the plot and/or characterisation because they simply aren't there. There are a few exceptions, but only a few.

I don't mind cliche so much if the writing draws me in... LOL

I so love you for saying things I'm not allowed to say lest I be roasted over the fires of ego-laden wordsmiths, quality-driven or not. (Of course, you are much more likeable than I, for obvious reasons, so the lady shall emerge unscathed. Which is good, because you are much too dearly needed to be sacrificed for want of an opinion.)

*laughs* I did tone it down a lot from the original version.

I'm no more likable than you, love, and you know it. I for one adore and love you, as do a few others. :)

I'm so sorry for slacking lately, but RL really has been a bit too bitchy for my liking. I am totally looking forward to going to Austin tomorrow and simply chilling with friends for a few days. It's exactly what I need atm.

I seem to be terribly late to this but I just stumbled across this post and read it + the comments with interest.

You make some excellent points, especially regarding sloppiness. I hate re-reading my own stuff - I didn't re-read my essays and fictional writing at school, I don't re-read my work, but I do re-read any fic I write, even if it makes me cringe and want to hide, because there is always at least something there that I've missed.

I know it still won't be absolutely perfect, if only because no one seems to agree on every single comma (I'm only slowly learning to use commas in English, and sometimes despairing when I see native speakers with a background in writing disagree on them), but it doesn't mean I couldn't do my best anyway.

So I suppose I'd expect the same from others. At the very least, spell check should be absolutely mandatory, no matter whether posting on a moderated archive or ff.net - and one most certainly doesn't need Microsoft Word for that. OpenOffice has spell check. FireFox has spell check!

I'm not sure I agree about recs, though. Perhaps it's because I expect there to be a certain bias, whether it's bias towards friends or bias towards certain kinds of stories or whatever - I just don't expect to agree with a lot of them anyway. I make my own decision based on the summary and rating, most of the time, and only follow recs when they're by someone whose opinion I trust (i.e. whose taste I know I share). And if I still don't care for it, I simply back-button without getting too far.

Mostly, I just view rec lists as a good way to keep an eye on stories I might not otherwise have seen - in other words, I take a closer look at a rec if it's to a story not on ff.net, Ashwinder, TPP or OWL, as in that case I've probably not seen it myself. Or if it's a short story, not a chaptered WIP, in which case I might have missed it in the recently updated stories list.

I'm really only more likely to read something only based on reccing (and not the summary etc) when I see a specific story suddenly recced by a lot of people all over my f-list. The last time that happened was with The Silvering Divide, and I was very glad I read it - but then, it was a story I'd meant to read at some point anyway, the reccing just made me read it a bit sooner.

As for egos... don't we all have them? I think it's entirely natural that writers can feel hurt when they see a long list of corrections, whether by a beta or an admin, especially when they're fairly new to this. I still get this momentary sting when I first see corrections, although it passes in an instant and I don't take it personally (years of doing work where everything goes through an editor or two helps). I've seen it at work, when new translators start - some of them don't last past their first bit of work, as they get too offended and/or hurt by the editor handing back a sheet entirely covered in red.

It takes a thick skin to get over that, and I can understand the people who aren't able to, especially when they've come to writing from the "I'm only doing it for fun" angle. It's fine by me if they don't bother - if it's too awful, I just won't bother reading either.

*grins widely* Better late than never, and I thank you for your input!

I hate re-reading what I've written, too, and I suspect many authors do. When I re-read, I tend to want to delete it all... But some of us get over it, edit what we find necessary to edit and then move on by posting it. Or deleting it. Either is fine. The fact is, no matter how well anyone writes, a re-read of the writing will weed out errors. Sometimes a few, sometimes many. That makes the lives of admins of moderated archives easier, and it makes lives of readers more joyful. If we decide to write, we should give our best, no? Even if it is "just a hobby." But if we learn to play the piano (instead of learning to write), don't we also want to give it our best shot? :)

I don't think anyone (fanfic writer or published author) is perfect. That is what makes life so interesting. I'm not a native English speaker either. But I've had the tremendous luck to come in on a lively discussion between two native speakers who were both absolutely anal about punctuation and then agreed to compare English language manuals. ;) As you so rightly say, at the end of the day, the important thing is that one gives his/her best. Because if they don't, they lose credibility very fast. And then leave a trail of unhappiness.

As to recs, of course there is a certain bias, I absolutely agree. What's one's bane is another's treasure! On the other hand, there are some rules that should be observed in principle, such as dialogue punctuation (which I know can be an issue with non-English writers, but that's where betas can be really helpful), or the use of parenthesis (as in, "(as the author pointed out three chapters ago,)" is a no-no because that simply doesn't belong in fiction), or the use of ridiculous commas ("I, do not agree, that you, were, intimidated by that, action.") When that kind of "fic" is recommended, I lose respect and interest. That said, I do make recommendations on my LJ, and I have friends whose opinions I value tell me those recs are crap while other friends whose opinions I value equally tell me they love it when I recommend something. LOL. I guess it all comes down to standards that are set by each person. Those who share those standards will agree with a rec whereas those who have different standards won't agree with it.

As to ego, well, that's my personal fight. LOL. I try my best to do without it, and it's hard.

I'm gonna take the plunge now and friend you. Hope that's okay. If not, uh, just ignore me and I'll disappear. :)

(no subject)

kribu.livejournal.com - 2008-12-17 09:30 (UTC) - Expand

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