Vaccination?

[lady_karelia]

Something came up in chat tonight, and because it's late and I'm tired and have to be up early in the morning, I offered to continue the discussion on LJ. So here goes.

If you're that keen on convincing me why I should allow myself or my children be injected with a cocktail of poisonous substances, then please provide me with the scientific evidence, ie. link to scientific studies that prove to me beyond the shadow of a doubt that vaccines are beneficial rather than damaging.

I spent nearly eight years of my life looking for that scientific evidence. I started out because I wanted to disprove someone who told me I'm a "believer in the religion of medicine". I was desperate to find a scientific proof and subscribed to medical journals, which cost me a fortune. When I finally gave up, I had never felt more disappointed.

For example, one would think there'd be plenty of double-blind studies out there, proving that vaccines are beneficial. Well, I'll be darned. Didn't find a single one.

Don't bother linking me to "news". The "news" also tell you how wonderful diet coke is. Or ready-made meals that contain more poisons than edible stuff, let alone nourishment. Or how wonderful meat is. So, just don't. I want scientific evidence.

Give me a clue why it might be beneficial to inject mercury, formaldehyde, aborted fetal tissue, animal dna, alunimum directly into the blood of a human. All in one go. And that's not even mentioning the "virus" which is "weakened". Weakened with what kind of methods? Ethical? I doubt it.

And, as someone was afraid of meeting me or my children since we're not fully vaccinated, please tell me why you are afraid if YOUR children are fully vaccinated to meet my unvaccinated children??? You are told when you bring your children into your doctor's office as well as by TV commercials that once your children are vaccinated, they are fully immune to the disease they're vaccinated against. Why are you afraid of non-vaccinated people if the vaccines are so safe and protective???

I have been reading my f-list religiously. Each time vaccines are mentioned, they go together with the mention of sickness. The flu vaccine wasn't "the right strain that's why I had the flu anyways", or the flu vaccine "made me sick like hell". The anti-cervical cancer vaccine "made dd really sick, but at least she'll be protected now". Oh, rly? She might be so well protected that she'll never have children. Read the package insert, at the very least. And for crying out loud, please do your research.

Comments

[lady-karelia.livejournal.com]

Something (http://www.marytocco.com/polio.htm) interesting about polio. And lookie what I've just found here (http://www.notadoc.org/Articles/NATURALLY%20Speaking/pulitzer_prizes_polio_propaganda.htm). Sugar. Yup.

Oh, don't get me started on food, LOL. Or cosmetics. What on earth is an ingredient generally known in labs for its skin-irritating function doing in shampoo and cleansing bars???

Different topic, similar horror. You may very well find eventually that the topic isn't all that different. At the end of the day, I think we're all being terribly conned. I've been waiting for the day humanity wakes up. I sincerely hope it won't be too late then.

[lady-karelia.livejournal.com]

There is no doubt less damage if vaccines aren't started before age 2. I remember reading something about Japan and the infant death rate dropping dramatically when they changed that.

[lady-karelia.livejournal.com]

It's heartbreaking, seeing this damage happening with your own eyes, isn't it?

Incidents aren't that rare at all. Those in charge lie, and those who are fed by them are unaware. No ped I've spoken to ever actually knew what the package insert says. They don't care because as long as they vaccinate, they have an income. And those few who eventually have doubts are shut up immediately. Or made into scapegoats, just look at Andy Wakefield.

[persevero.livejournal.com]

I acknowledge that the improvements to our water supplies had a more important effect than immunisation for some diseases - polio is enteric so that would make perfect sense. Though as far as my home town is concerned, nothing happened to the water supply over the 1950s, so it is immunisation or a statistical blip. I'm not sure why improvements in the water supply should affect smallpox, but then we've had smallpox vaccination for much longer than the others.

Some of these diseases may have dropped off in frequency and virulence all by themselves, as well - scarlet fever, for instance, was a killer in my mother's childhood, had become much milder by mine (a close friend had it and was not that seriously ill, though he went pink and peeled like a snake) and is both rare and mild now.

Actually, most people would consider that my family add weight to *your* argument, because my younger son has Asperger's Syndrome. However, we noticed that he was different from his older brother literally right from birth, and we detected no change at all after his immunisations. He's mildly enough affected that twenty years ago he would just have been looked upon as a little odd - I can spot the characters with Asperger's all the way through popular children's literature.

I too had the standard diseases - measles, mumps, chicken-pox and rubella, with no long-term ill effects, though I wouldn't wish measles on anyone - I can still remember the days of grinding earache. A friend of mine, however, lost his hearing (he has since married someone who lost hers because of meningitis - they have a hearing daughter who also fluent in BSL and is extremely naughty, but that's another thing). Rubella was great - two weeks off school in May when I felt fine!

However, in the words (incorrectly, I think) attributed to Voltaire: "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

[ellaselenelupin.livejournal.com]

Just a note from me.
When my brother had to do his military service in the Bundeswehr, he got the measles. He was an adult (I think he was 19 or 20) and suffered from a childhood disease. That's always a dangerous combination. He collapsed during exercise, after that the doctor diagnosed measles. They sent him home. He took a bath and we suddenly hurt him calling. He wasn't able to move and my mum and I had to hoist him out of the tub and carry him to his bed. When my father came home they went to the hospital. It was horrible. There still could be complications we don't know yet, like infertility.
I am vaccinated against measles or else I would have had to move out for the time being, and I had to stay away from one of my friends because she was pregnant at that time.
Also, my grandmother's sister got the measles when she was an adult; she died from it.

[ellaselenelupin.livejournal.com]

Oh, and I'm confused about the word measles. Just for clarification I'm talking about Röteln.

[angelmischa.livejournal.com]

100 cases of smallpox out of how many people in how many years? Sure, vaccines don't work 100% of the time, but then neither do condoms...

As for flu, well, I'm not even quite convinced about that as a necessary vaccination; like was said, there are many strains and normally only one is vaccinated against. We're not really that concerned, as far as I can tell. I think that some of the vaccines are an over-reaction (like the US idea that a chickenpox vaccine was necessary! WTH?). A lot of medicine (and science and technology in general) is now based on 'let's try and eliminate anything remotely boring/tedious/unpleasant'.

There are more pressing concerns about medicine, I think, like the overuse of antibiotics causing an'arms-race' with superbugs (anyone got statistics on what kills more people: MMR vaccines or MRSA? That would be interesting to know...). And there are other, IMHO, more troubling issues that fall under the 'philsophically objectionable' heading, such as surgical 'corrections' on intersex children. And if you look at lots of psychology and theories of mind and all the rubbish theories about how best to teach your child this or that... I actually do think a lot of medicine and science is dangerous/questionable. I also think that the recommended 'every six months' visit to the dentist is a swindle, just like maybe you think the vaccine industry is a swindle, but probably most people don't hold those same opinions.

(Also, fyi, I wasn't simply stupid/ill-informed and didn't know about the exemption. I did see on the form—yes, I know, shocking, someone read some of the boring forms—that I could claim an exemption. I didn't feel like I had a philosophical objection, and I wasn't going to just claim I had one out of laziness about getting to the doctors. I think that most other people will have done the same thing, if they hadn't already received all of those vaccinations anyway.)

[(Anonymous)]

If you've managed to convince yourself that the National effing Library of Medicine is financed solely by the pharmaceutical industry, there's absolutlely nothing I can say that will convince you that currently available vaccines are largely safe and effective. Nor will you find particularly convincing my statement that double-blind studies aren't the only kind that are scientifically valid, given that most people are not exactly keen to subject themseles to deadly diseases for the sake of satisfying skeptics who lack the critical skills to differentiate anecdotal evidence from science.

If you don't want to vaccinate your kids, fine. But don't expect those of us who have been vaccinated and didn't suddenly become autistic to support it as a sound decision.

[mundungus42.livejournal.com]

That was me, BTW.

[veradee.livejournal.com]

It's all very vague. I'm just not convinced that the negative effects outweigh the positive ones. Personally, I've never heard of anyone at all who suffered from being vaccinated.

[veradee.livejournal.com]

Apparently, we've something similar in Germany after all.

[bambu345.livejournal.com]

I had a conversation with my brother and my SIL about this topic recently. Their kids are young enough to still be doing the childhood rounds of vaccines, and SIL does her research. There is apparently a recent study (I do not know whose) which links standardized vaccinations with the rise in Autism.

It makes me very glad that we kept our children from having every single vaccine ... but it irks me that we succumbed to so many.

[ltgarrix.livejournal.com]

To each their own. i just decided I couldn't live with the guilt of having something happen to her that very likely could have been prevented with a vaccination. yes, the risks of contracting these diseases is incredibly small and probably only about a hundred folks a year come down with something like measles in the US, but I also look at the odds of a negative reaction to the vaccine and those are incredibly small (I don't necessarily buy the autism/vaccine risk and the mercury has been removed anyway). If you feel risk of an adverse reaction is greater than the risk of contracting the disease, that's your right.

Of course, I have been vaccinated for everything, including smallpox and anthrax (I'm one of the very few in the military who went through the whole regimen) and have been fine through it all.

Just thinking about autism, I wonder if folks have done studies to see if it is more prevalent in breastfed or formula fed babies or if there is really statistical difference in that, or even what other risk factors there might me. Everyone seemed to have been putting all their eggs in the vaccine basket.

[ltgarrix.livejournal.com]

Not to debunk this, but there are still significant numbers of polio cases in poor, rural Africa and Asia where sugar is not really part of the diet.

I do believe that there are far too many unstudied chemicals in products that are being passed of as safe and that it is having serious effects to our well being and the environment, but most folks don't know and/or cannot afford more natural products.

[lady-karelia.livejournal.com]

No, that's not what I said at all. I pointed out that both links in your first paragraph linked to familydoctors.org. Then I said that that particular site is financed by pharmaceutical advertisements. I didn't even mention the National Library of Medicine.

And I don't expect anything from anyone, lol.

[lady-karelia.livejournal.com]

I see your point. :) And yes, I agree, measles sucked bigtime. What bothered me most was that my eyes were hurting and prevented me from reading! LOL. And yes, rubella was wonderful. I don't think I even stayed in bed.

I love that Voltaire quote and have used it often. I wish everyone were as ready to simply agree to disagree. I'm so glad I friended you!

[lady-karelia.livejournal.com]

There are still 25 mcg thimerosol in the flu vax, so it hasn't been quite completely removed. But yes, I value my right to see the risk of an adverse reaction as greater than the disease.

That's interesting to read that you're one of the very few in the military to go through the entire regimen. I've always been under the impression that if you don't state your objection to vaccines when you sign up, you are not given a choice but simply have to accept them all. Am I wrong? Got any relevant link?

From what I understand, there are no studies that look at the formula vs. breastfed kids and a connection to autism. I guess it's a matter of suppression here as well, considering how powerful the formula companies are. There is certainly plenty of scientific evidence that breastfed children are healthier in general, though.

[lady-karelia.livejournal.com]

Yes. In fact, there is plenty of scientific evidence, starting with the effects of mercury poisoning, which are incredibly similar to the symptoms of autism. And let's not forget Dr Gerberding's slip-up on TV recently, during which she was recorded saying there is a link.

I'm totally with you on the irking. There was a time I didn't question.

[bambu345.livejournal.com]

It's shocking how many illnesses can be attributed to some sort of poisoning -- whether it be mercury in vaccine bases, lead in paint, or some other item which manufacturers use because it's cost efficient and increases their profit margins.

I, too, am glad that I've learned to question and quietly rebel.

[lady-karelia.livejournal.com]

Indeed! I won't even go into what's passing as "food". Or cosmetics.

You're the clever one, doing the rebelling quietly. LOL. I try to be quiet about it, but it never lasts long.

[ltgarrix.livejournal.com]

Well, the anthrax vaccine is one that is delivered in several steps. I think there is a series of 6 or 7 shots before you hit the annual booster phase. I just happened to have my two sea tours and deployments coincide with the start of the vaccine program. There was a couple year hiatus in which the vaccine was being challenged and the program had been suspended. I know that J never did the whole regimen, and of the folks on my second ship, there were only a couple who had been given shots under the first round. They were only vaccinating those who would be deploying to the Middle East. There may be more in the other services, but just because of when there was a break in the program and the relatively small percentage of careerist, I'm sure there aren't that many who have done the whole thing.

It is very hard to refuse vaccines in the US military. Folks who refused smallpox and anthrax were getting taken to court martial and being discharged. Normally any religion that opposes vaccines tends to oppose being the military, so finding someone who won't get vaccinated (other than the flue which you can avoid at some commands because they are so large) is incredibly rare. and I have no idea if the anthrax vaccination program is still in place as I've not been to sea for a while and I never got my next booster.

Interesting about autism and breastfed/formula fed. Just given the fact that formulas have chemicals in them, I would think that would have been something that would be studied. But then again, the formula folks spend a lot of money still trying to subtly convince mothers that formula is better (though thankfully in the US they have to have on the package somewhere that breastmilk is best, but it's always in small print). And of course, there are all the other chemicals in everything else, including cow's milk (which if Katie actually would drink anything from a cup or bottle, I would buy organic for her, but we are still fighting the drink battle)

[mundungus42.livejournal.com]

PubMed (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/) was my first link, and I sincerely hope you take advantage of it. All the publications whose contents are listed there are from peer-reviewed journals, which means not just industry and govermnent people look at the study to see that it's scientifically valid. Even if you can't view the full content outside a library, you can read the abstracts.

And discounting the information on a nonprofit website based on who advertizes there is just plain silly. My nonprofit chorus, San Diego Master Chorale (http://www.sdmasterchorale.org/), helped sponsor our season. That doesn't mean we sing songs about gambling or that money you give to us will go to support gamblers.

[pennswoods.livejournal.com]

I recall an interesting conversation I had with an acquaintance a few years ago who was involved in research on chemicals and autism rates. Apparently, his group's research found a strong correlation between the increased use of fire retardant materials in children's products (toys, bedding, etc.) and autism rates.

[mundungus42.livejournal.com]

To clarify (as I somehow managed to truncate the sentence), the penultimate sentence should read "My nonprofit chorus, San Diego Master Chorale, has an ad from a casino on our site because they helped sponsor our season."

[astarrymist.livejournal.com]

Here in America, it may vary state by state, but generally, all a parent has to do is sign a waiver in order for their unvaccinated children to attend public school. It has the waiver right on the back of the immunization records. However, they really like to perpetuate the myth, even here, that your kids can't go to school without having had their shots. Just an FYI to anyone who didn't know that.