About the written word

[lady_karelia]

Following the poll and discussion about what puts readers off (thanks, everyone, who engaged in it; it was very interesting and productive), some of you asked which trend I've been observing, so I figured it's easier to do this in a separate post rather than answering the same thing individually to everyone who asked.

Yes, I'll admit that I see a lot more behind the scenes going on, being an admin and a beta rather than a reader only. But it's all about writing. And yes, I realise that every reader has preferences and they may vary to the extreme between one reader and another, and that's good, for that makes for a vast variety of reading material to choose from. And just to clarify: This is my personal opinion. I've not discussed it with any other admins or other betas or anyone so far aside from yesterday's thread here on LJ.

The trends I've observed over the past few months are sloppiness, carelessness, and inflated ego development. These traits have increased quite substantially. None of them have a place in fiction writing. In case you wonder, allow me to extrapolate:

Sloppiness: When an author submits a chapter (or uploads to unmoderated archives) either without having it read by another set of eyes, even though it would need it, or failing to re-read it in order to weed out the errors they'd find on their own, or not using a spellcheck (and then give the excuse of not having MS Word; um, hello, google spellcheck, and you'll have choices), that is sloppy. If you can't be arsed to invest the time to offer something worth my time, what makes you think I'll take the time to invest in your stuff?

Carelessness: When an author submits/uploads a chapter that says pretty much nothing and then admits as much in the A/N. If you want to write fiction, then at least learn the basics, eh? Because if you don't, you'll always dream of reviews except for the ones from people sorry enough to waste even thirty seconds on your sorry attempt. I readily forgive a new author any mistakes they make. I also consider myself quite tolerant when an author's first language isn't English, and yeah, I can spot those from miles away. ;) Most readers are kind, especially if the first attempt speaks to them in one way or another. But if authors still make those same mistakes a few chapters later--and I'm talking about basics here, such as dialogue punctuation or a period at the end of the sentence--then I get the feeling that the author doesn't care.

Ego: If you write because you think you need your ego stroked, do the world a favour and stop. Just because you might have written and posted 200k worth of fic in the last year does not mean what you produce is of any value whatsoever. And getting indignant that nobody seems to care is not the way to go. Ask yourself what's wrong and look in the mirror. Then sit down and figure how to make it right, okay? And then, *gasp* write something from your heart. Write something because you feel the need to write it, and don't think about posting it. Leave it for a few days and go back to it and see if you still like it, and be objective about it. At least as objective as you can possibly be. Don't write for the sake of reviews; it will not make you happy. Of course, a lot of us are royal review whores; I certainly admit that of myself. But we don't think about reviews until after the chapter is posted.

Those are my gripes. Another gripe I've developed recently is that all those rec lists out there seem to include a lot of drivel. I realise it's pc to be kind and encouraging to dunderheads. I don't like to see it going as far as insulting my intelligence by recommending I'd waste my time on reading something that is so poorly written that it has little to do with actual fiction. But that's okay; I usually don't have time for pure pleasure-reading. The only reason I did a few days ago was because I was sick with a sore throat and headachy and snotty and wanted some light reading that would distract me from feeling miserable and all the RL stuff that's been going on lately. It saddens me, though. Some established writers recommend extremely poorly-written fics while ignoring well-written ones, and I can't help but conclude that they're afraid of having competition. Why else would they lower themselves to that level?

So there. No need to tell me I'm opinionated; I've known that for a while.

Comments

[dhark-charlotte.livejournal.com]

I have nothing to add or disagree with. Just wanted to pat you on the back and say, "Rock on!" Because you said it much better than I could (and nicer).

I really hate following someone's rec and wasting time with crap.

[pyjamapants.livejournal.com]

There's a difference between review whores and review gluttons. Review whores give thanks for every review, considering them a badge of honor, and fret about what they might have done better when the review numbers dip (or, at least, this one does). Review gluttons kvetch in their author's notes that their muses aren't being fed enough.

Perhaps the rec. lists need a new category: pulp. I'll admit that sometimes I'm in the mood for a barely simmering plot or wildly predictable plot. They make good stories to fall asleep to.... :)

[lady-karelia.livejournal.com]

Oh, it was like watching a train wreck. I had no energy to find the x that would've closed the damn thing. And then mad at self afterwards for wasting hours, which could have been spent productively. Like sleeping. *snrk*

Thank you for your kind words. I actually did spend hours to tone it down. LOL

[lady-karelia.livejournal.com]

Whores vs gluttons? Interesting idea! I've never thought about that. I mean, I know many newbies ask for reviews, and I've done so myself, but if an A/N contains a phrase along the lines of, 'I will post the next chapter as soon as I receive x amounts of reviews,' I tend to use that back button!

Pulp sounds interesting. The thing is, melenka considers her Gauntlet (http://www.thepetulantpoetess.com/viewstory.php?sid=8989) pulp, and that kind of sets the standard impossibly high. LOL. It has highly simmering, near boiling plot and not so predicting. Hm. Maybe a Cheese category?

[pyjamapants.livejournal.com]

Author's notes can be quite revealing. I've scurried away from the following (to name a few):
-Comments about how they dashed off the chapter this morning and just *had* to get it posted
-Blatant requests for suggestions with the plot
-Pages of review responses at the beginning of the chapter on aff.net.... it makes me hardly ever review on aff.net - it feels like I'm contributing to the litter at the top of the chapter (though admittedly there's not all that many fics I read there)

I nearly fell off my chair laughing at your comment about the rec. I had the exact same experience about a month ago.... an embarrassing 22 chapters later I was entirely pissed to find that I'd read the whole damn thing. I went to bed at stupid o'clock, accidentally woke up my DH, and had a long conversation with him about 'why am I reading bad fic?'

'Cheese' as a category would be insulting to actual cheese. Perhaps 'brain candy'?

[lady-karelia.livejournal.com]

oh, absolutely! IS why I tend to stay away from AFF or FFN in general. But my mind simply wasn't quite at it... Litter? Too right! *snickers*

Not cheese then. How about Velveeta? Cuz, honestly, brain candy? That sounds like a treat to the brain. LOL

[kittylefish.livejournal.com]

very well put. take that, bad writers everywhere!

[dickgloucester.livejournal.com]

This is well said. Thanks.

And on the recommendations, I'm with you all the way. I like to have things recced, but it's got to the point where I rarely follow anything but a rec from someone whose opinion I trust. *sigh*

Still, they do take me to places I wouldn't have gone otherwise so it's not all bad.

[shiv5468.livejournal.com]

And which hitherto unregarded gems have been missed then?

[melusin-79.livejournal.com]

I agree whole heartedly. Having had a few dire requests for beta coming through PI lately, I'm also wondering where the quality went. And as for the archives - there's just so much angst and whatnot, I really can't be bothered to plough through it, but rely on the recs of people I know have similar tastes to me. The amount of doormat!Hermione out there is really getting on my nerves.

[lariopefic.livejournal.com]

I think it's really interesting this question of pc-ness that you're raising, because I agree with you, but I don't know what to do about it.

I agree that as a community, we often glowingly review and rec subpar fiction because we know and like the author. Our lives (particularly on LJ) have become somehow entwined with others and we encourage their efforts. I don't disagree with the notion of being kind and supportive, particularly to friends, but I see the result being gluts of fic that shouldn't live up to community standards. And of course, then everything kind of follows a logical decline.

I have stopped making personal recs from my journal, because I have no idea how to balance the needs of people that I care about against my own standards. It seems easier and fairer not to rec at all.

[southernwitch69.livejournal.com]

Sorry I hadn't seen this sooner. I blame the effing sickness-that-shalt-not-be-named. Hmmm. You're opinionated? Why, I had no idea.

Sloppiness. This is why I've cut down on my beta amount. "Yeah, SW, let me send you fifty chapters of my stories and still be mispelling McGonagall and such." Fuck that. I've decided I've got better things to do.

Ego. Ahahaha. I know! I talked to someone recently and was shocked that she had one. Really. It does feel bad, though, when you write and are passed over for something you can plainly see isn't very good. Hmm. I guess that's an ego, too. But still. Right. I'm with you.

Rec List. I don't even go round them and couldn't tell you what's rec'd and what's not. The Know-It-Alls. That's a rubbish list. Sure, there are great stories there and some missed gems, but they are biased and won't put up anyone they don't like. So, that's just bs. ~proudly points to icon~

The HG/SS Digest. They were doing good for a while. I remember you getting dissed on there because of "show and not tell" and yet something that was about 250 words and written for Shiv (and was shit by the way) was rec'd on there three days later. That had me arching my eyebrows. And this was after some other chick (a right bitch) whinged about her shit drabbles not being rec'd there. I snickered at that because I'm pissy that way, but it felt wrong all the same. *edit* Oh, and Soul Bound had a lovely story "Potions Master For Sale" that wasn't rec'd. She asked why and was told that there were other stories like that around. (I suspect the mod had a fave and didn't want something similar up there or didn't feel SB's compared.) But yeah, let's recommend fifty MLC stories, eh? Not like they aren't all alike.

Politics. I don't put stock in it and try to stay away from it. There are people I don't like and plenty I do. They all know who they are. All the same, they are treated fairly at my group and at the archive.

As far as poorly written stories, well, some people's trash are others' treasures. I've seen something terrible thoroughly enjoyed, and I've seen something great missed. I guess it depends on our likes and dislikes. You and I disagree on lots of authors' stories lately (me seeing potential, you seeing junk). :) It varies.

It's very easy to throw together a story that you know people will come out in droves for (any MLC will do well in this fandom you know), but some of us prefer to write what we truly like instead. Things will never change until readers wise up. But they won't. This is free entertainment for them, and most of them don't care about the things our eagle eyes notice.

:(

[dreamy-dragon73.livejournal.com]

Very well said, I couldn't agree more.

I know what you mean about recs. I'm a picky reader and have been very disappointed a few times so now I only rely on recs from people I trust.

[veradee.livejournal.com]

I can't tell whether it's a trend, but these problems certainly exist. I can't imagine what might be done about the sloppiness and carelessness, though, because the writers often seem to excuse it with the words, "It's just for fun." Which is great. I think writing should be fun. But I've never understood the attitude of equalling "doing something for fun" with "not giving my best". If people play football, play the piano or have some other hobby, do they also don't give their best because it's just for fun? I doubt it.

But with other hobbies they might not receive an instant and often glowing gratification, which might be another problem. When does one ever see that a story doesn't get loads of great reviews? Apart from the fact that I'm not a fan of these star ratings in the first place, when does one ever see a story that has less than 4.5 stars? Every writer and every story are hailed as being great. And while this might be politically correct, it's a completely meaningless procedure. It's doing a disservice both to the truly great writers and to the writers who still have much to learn.

As for recommendations, I rarely follow them. It has happened too often that writers whose fics I admire very much have recced stories that I thought were very badly written.

[ltgarrix.livejournal.com]

Oh goodness, have I seen the ego. I really hate that. I have seen authors holding the next chapter hostage until a certain number of reviews are received.

I love reviews. I have never gotten many because I don't normally choose to write the popular pairing in either of the fandoms I write for. I know this has hurt me because folks see my name and assume that I'm going to be writing the not so popular characters/pairings.

I have never understood folks who don't take pride in their work by having it beta'd, spellchecked, etc.

[ltgarrix.livejournal.com]

Just to comment on the stars. I only leave them for stories that I like and never give fewer than 4 stories. If I don't finish a story because it doesn't click with me, I generally don't leave a review. But I have seen several SS/HG that are so out of character that you don't recognize either character but review after review raves about how wonderful the story is. But yeah, I don't really like the stars as they are pretty meaningless.

[natasnape.livejournal.com]

Very interesting, lady_karelia. I especially appreciate that it is not only me who sees an exponential growth of number of stories that one one does not wish to see at all. Readers have an advantage of admin buffer, or firewall if you prefer, that shields them from mediocre stories, and that surely makes our heartache less pronounced compared to you.

But still, what can an admin do with a story that started off well and subsequently dwindled to the ego kind? Because, I, as a reader, have a tool called reviews. They are just not appreciated unless they are squee-ky.

[sc010f.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I can see all of the above.

About recs, though: I will skim recs that people give, and if I don't like them for whatever reason, I'll stop reading them and move on with a philosophical shrug. It's all a matter of taste in a lot of cases, and I'm pretty forgiving of that.

I know that my stuff isn't universally loved (or even very good - it's true, not me being self-effacing) and while I'd prefer people to be honest and informed when they leave reviews (and those two rarely come together), I also don't sweat it very much, I'm still finding my voice in a lot of cases and while I want to do a good job in terms of mechanics, grammar and spelling, and plotiness, I'm doing this to get better as a writer, not to win friends and praise.

I had a point, if you see it, let me know, I think I need it back!

*hugs*

[veradee.livejournal.com]

There's at least one moderated archive where you have to leave a rating. You can't switch it off.

I also tend to leave reviews for stories only that I enjoyed, but as a writer I realise that receiving positive reviews only doesn't help if you want to improve.

[(Anonymous)]

Thoase are not gripes, and that list is pretty much what most folks should be doing because it's common sense.

[mazzy2121.livejournal.com]

Feel the same as everyone... just adding my non-original thoughts to the list :)

As for star ratings, I have never given lower than a four - deserved or not - and I personally have never recieved anything below a four (deserved or not LOL). No one wants to come right out and say 'okay, this needs a lot of work' and so we tend to 'play nice', which makes for far less conflict but obviously does not improve story quality.

As for rec sites, I only check out some of the stories recced on the_new_library. I like that one because 1. it gives you the stories that you probably would otherwise never find, and 2. the comm has it's own 'star-rating' system independant of the story's star-rating so you can see what the reccer actually thought of the fic - you get "here's a 8/10 rec" as opposed to "here's a rec, check it out" - AND others who read that rec can also leave a rating on the comm, which IMO gives a better reflection of the possible likability (<-sp?) of the rec.

But as for other rec sites, I don't know about all of them but one in particular I checked out seemed to just be the same authors over and over with a mere few odds and ends scattered inbetween. It came off as more of a site that was created for the sole purpose of a specific group of people saying 'oh, your work is great.' 'Oh, no, no, YOUR work is great.' - I tend to refer to it as a circle jerk. LOL
But anyway, after seeing that one I kinda saw no point in checking out other rec sites for fear they'd be the same (until TNL came along). I think I do pretty well finding stories on my own anyway so ~shrug~ .

[rosedemon.livejournal.com]

All good points. However, it is fandom and so much of fandom is about everything you have gripes about. It is all about carelessness, ego and sloppiness. Do I care for it? Nope, I don't. But I have learned to deal with some of it.

What bugs me? A lack of flair. So much that has been posted has little style. I say, even if you are writing a bad fic have some character to it.

Recs--I don't know. I do follow some, others I ignore. Depends on who is doing the rec'ing. I do like the SS/HG digest.

[melenka.livejournal.com]

I cannot tell you how much I would prefer that reviews be used for constructive criticism. I do not expect it, because that particular art has fallen out of favor and is no longer taught. Shame, really. I appreciate reviews, but only when they tell me something about how the reader felt, what they thought, if they were confused, etc. "I liked it" - or any version thereof - is a lovely affirmation, but it gives me nothing to work with. To ask the reviewer "what? what specifically?" would seem like trolling for love, when what I really want is the answer. I suppose that would take them knowing the answer, which they may or may not, and I'm not sure I have the right to ask that of them.

Part of the reason I like writing original fic (aside from chafing at the bonds of someone else's world) is that the people who choose to read aren't bringing preconceived notions of what they want the characters to be like, so their criticism or praise is based on their reaction to what they actually read.

It does help to be an unknown quantity, as I dodge the popularity contests and politics entirely. There's enough of that in my job, thanks. Fiction is an escape for me and I don't plan to let anyone take that from me unless they're handing me a publishing contract -- at which point I am entirely their bitch.

[melenka.livejournal.com]

So much for my proof-reading ability. Above should read: To ask the reviewer "why? what specifically?"

I hang my head in shame.

[melenka.livejournal.com]

That's because Gauntlet is a modern version of noir crime fiction and would totally be considered pulp if it were to see the light of day.